I don't know if I'm misreading that interview, but it strikes me as complete hogwash. These are political scientists, not doctors. They are not medical experts. They don't know what does or doesn't stop transmission.
From what I can tell, they're saying that some lives are expendable so that most people can live normally. That makes my blood boil. There are people who are still disabled from long COVID. People whose lives have been ruined. And let's not forget about the people who died because others couldn't discipline themselves to wear masks or refrain from going to parties.
My husband and I have never had COVID. Do you know why? We follow protocols. Protocols work. And I resent people telling us that they don't and that not only our lives but everyone's is expendable.
I just spent 43 minutes out of my life, wasted on this! These are POLITICAL scientists. Not health professionals.
Here are a couple of other items to consider
These lockdowns occurred under TRUMP
Trump only wanted the country opened back up for his ego, as the economy naturally started tanking.
Trump also changed course after toy boy Jared Kushner told him it affected the elderly and a disproportionate percentage of black people. He was definitely ok with that.
And finally consider Covid KILLED over 1 million Americans. Estimates without the social response, were predicted at least 3% which would have resulted in around 9 million more deaths.
Hi Patricia! Sorry to hear you felt this was such a waste of time. I personally enjoy hearing views I disagree with because they help confirm my own.
Not entirely sure how or why Trump came into the conversation, but since you listened to all 43 minutes of the podcast, I'm sure you heard how they talked about this being a multi-disciplinary examination; they looked at how the Covid lockdowns affected *society*, so maybe we might prevent deaths in the future... the economy, mental health, education... surely we're not going to ask health professionals to lend their expertise here?
Respectfully, considering the tone you opened with, your comment strikes me as evidence that their study was correct.
This article did nothing to change my mind that the scientists, and public health professionals, did everything they could to prevent the loss of LIFE.
I had grandchildren who were affected with the school lockdowns and missed opportunities for gathering and celebrating! They are fine.
Trump was mentioned as HE put a very negative spin, and the right wing continues these “conspiratorial “ and blame game look back, to hang this on someone. Look at all the bullshite Dr Fauci— a lifelong public servant has gone through. Or it was made in a lab- group or in a wet market. Who the fuck cares.
We had a tremendous loss of life. Over a MILLION AMERICANS DIED.
Trump got rid of the pandemic playbook left to him by Obama. Where was that mention in this look back?
So really Brie, this was neither helpful, nor enlightening, in my opinion. But hey, you be you.
I have a friend named Jessica. She lost her mother and brother during the pandemic when her father-in-law shot them both in the head before turning the gun on himself. The lockdowns had isolated them at a terrible time, and exacerbated their issues.
I'm glad your grandchildren are fine, but their peers aren't... our education standards, classroom attendance, children's health, our own life expectancy, the economy, wealth inequality, trust in science... they all got much worse, which conservatives absolutely warned was going to happen.
Speaking for nobody but myself, I can FULLY admit that I was outright dismissive of the concerns coming from anyone who voted Trump, and I regret that now. I respect your opinion either way.
I know it created some mental health issues. However most people did not take those extreme measures. I’m so sorry. My son is a board certified psychiatrist and certainly had an uptick in his business as we all navigated through this.
However the podcast presented no statistical evidence whatsoever. I listened all the way through expecting some huge revelation. It was just cotton candy. A mouthful with no substance.
Re COVID19, I believe that the results and approaches in the USA maybe warranting your conclusion to agree with two political scientists, Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee, who did a couple years’ research and wrote a book detailing the U.S. response to Covid. You say you were wrong to agree with the pandemic measures of lockdown, and you mentioned "the left"—a political opinion, and that the health measures were not worth it after the fact.
I need to point out that over one million people died in the USA, under an inconsistent and unscientifically inclined president who did not collaborate and undermined his medical advisors. Under such circumstances, a national health approach was bound to fail, in tandem with people idiotically insisting on their "personal freedom" to refuse being vaccinated. That would be fine if they stayed home and didn't mingle with others and prevented infecting others. Did they? No they went into streets and protested and became shortsighted and spread the infection much more. As well, the social support and financial supports for businesses and workers in the USA failed,/was absent for those who could not earn, due to shut downs. In Canada, it was much different during the pandemic, wages of people and businesses were subsidized, and the treatments of the associated illnesses adequately dealt with, as Canada paid under our universal healthcare. Those circumstances are qualitative different from what happened in the USA. As result, not as many businesses went bankrupt and fewer workers went deep into depth ,and substantially fewer people died relative to the number of the population. With Canada's population 10 x smaller (I think we had 60,000 deaths), I think still sixty thousand were too many. Indeed, it was a learning process to know how the virus spread, and lockdowns did indeed prevent the spread, at least in Canada, but possibly not in the USA, as you had so many people who chose "freedom" over taking precautions. Health care is not a political issue in Canada (apart from a few who like to emulate MAGA fans). The anti-vaxxers asked for attention for their "freedoms" with the help of Fund Me money, predominantly coming from the USA, and managed to occupy our capital city with their trucks and caused mayhem for the residents there, severely restricting their ability to live their lives and their freedom. Should I thank them?
I think the fact that our pandemic response was determined by politics is *exactly* why a study like this was needed, AND why it needed to come from two highly respected academics.
I've always seen it the same as you; I think Donald Trump used his most gullible followers to spew crackpot opinions because it was good politics for him, and who cares about the people who die... as a result, conservatives and republicans made a violent departure away from science.
What I didn't acknowledge before was that the same phenomenon was happening on the LEFT as well; there were legitimate concerns about domestic violence, mental health, the economy, education standards... and I think, personally at least, because I was so pissed about Donald Trump, I was really dismissive of the concerns coming from the right. Since we're currently paying the price of many consequences the conservatives warned us about, it only seemed fair to acknowledge that the phenomenon occurred on the left too. Do you disagree?
Hi again Brie, it is hard for me to have an opinion on what occurred in the USA but I saw much more negative effects (from what I heard/viewed on our reliable CBC news casts) in the USA, partly because of the confusion and rather haphazard manner in which health care services and the Covd 19 treatments and precautions were applied, plus the harsh Darwinistic society you have there in the USA, rugged individualism, each is on their own, and dont expect the president (or state/federal government) to save you. That was just a precurser to what is going on now in your country. Of course, isolation caused its own side effect. Zoom calls to a mental health service provider is a bit different than being able to walk into an office. Yes, battering spouses, delays in education, all of that. But in Canada, in my view the measures and negavtive effects were not that overwhelming, and the saving of lives made it all worth it. I hope the women left their battering spouse, as any other time in life when they get beaten, and the kids get a tutor or peer tutering at any time they need it, and the schools make arrangements to catch up and improve the school support, and so on. The politics are a distraction. Don't fall for it.
It contains misinformation and spin, is a political view, and I would say it barely qualifies as a contribution to a scientific discussion. But, everybody is allowed to be wrong, of course.
Johanna, respectfully, that's a pretty bold claim. If you're gonna refute The New York Times and two credentialed, awarded political scientists, I think you should probably come with some alternative sources to support your opinion. Is it the methodology? Do you see discrepancies with their funding?
Without providing support for your opinion, it sounds more like you're dismissing what you don't agree with.
The political vieuw is a distraction. Yes, a new virus and new epidemic (Canada dealt with an earlier virus and learned some measures that were successful), and some mistakes made, but overall saving lives is the difference. If measures were controversial, so be it. It is health care and that is at the best of times in the USA controversial, questions about who pays for it, what comes out of one's pocket, who suffers and who is saved, all those effects that we do not experience in Canada. If people didn't want to abide by counter measures (pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical), then they should've stayed home as the considerate thing to do. But the misplaced strong (if not obsessive) sense of "freedom" and "human rights" is the problem in the USA, not how policies are implemented or devised by health professionals. I am not a social scientist and I already explained my opinion before. Maybe come to Canada and live here for a while, the society is much different from that of the USA. "Tunnel vision and the social prejudice talking about the number of deaths," quoted by one of the political scientiss, is a very good reason: the # of dead. There was not a lot of public buy-in. That is the USA for you. Values, yes it is all about values. Sorry for broadening this argument: your society is much different, with different values.
I don't know if I'm misreading that interview, but it strikes me as complete hogwash. These are political scientists, not doctors. They are not medical experts. They don't know what does or doesn't stop transmission.
From what I can tell, they're saying that some lives are expendable so that most people can live normally. That makes my blood boil. There are people who are still disabled from long COVID. People whose lives have been ruined. And let's not forget about the people who died because others couldn't discipline themselves to wear masks or refrain from going to parties.
My husband and I have never had COVID. Do you know why? We follow protocols. Protocols work. And I resent people telling us that they don't and that not only our lives but everyone's is expendable.
Ditto.
Me neither. I also follow protocols and even flew several tiems and I still keep my mask on in a plane, just as a precaution now.
I just spent 43 minutes out of my life, wasted on this! These are POLITICAL scientists. Not health professionals.
Here are a couple of other items to consider
These lockdowns occurred under TRUMP
Trump only wanted the country opened back up for his ego, as the economy naturally started tanking.
Trump also changed course after toy boy Jared Kushner told him it affected the elderly and a disproportionate percentage of black people. He was definitely ok with that.
And finally consider Covid KILLED over 1 million Americans. Estimates without the social response, were predicted at least 3% which would have resulted in around 9 million more deaths.
Hi Patricia! Sorry to hear you felt this was such a waste of time. I personally enjoy hearing views I disagree with because they help confirm my own.
Not entirely sure how or why Trump came into the conversation, but since you listened to all 43 minutes of the podcast, I'm sure you heard how they talked about this being a multi-disciplinary examination; they looked at how the Covid lockdowns affected *society*, so maybe we might prevent deaths in the future... the economy, mental health, education... surely we're not going to ask health professionals to lend their expertise here?
Respectfully, considering the tone you opened with, your comment strikes me as evidence that their study was correct.
Brie, no offense meant.
This article did nothing to change my mind that the scientists, and public health professionals, did everything they could to prevent the loss of LIFE.
I had grandchildren who were affected with the school lockdowns and missed opportunities for gathering and celebrating! They are fine.
Trump was mentioned as HE put a very negative spin, and the right wing continues these “conspiratorial “ and blame game look back, to hang this on someone. Look at all the bullshite Dr Fauci— a lifelong public servant has gone through. Or it was made in a lab- group or in a wet market. Who the fuck cares.
We had a tremendous loss of life. Over a MILLION AMERICANS DIED.
Trump got rid of the pandemic playbook left to him by Obama. Where was that mention in this look back?
So really Brie, this was neither helpful, nor enlightening, in my opinion. But hey, you be you.
I have a friend named Jessica. She lost her mother and brother during the pandemic when her father-in-law shot them both in the head before turning the gun on himself. The lockdowns had isolated them at a terrible time, and exacerbated their issues.
I'm glad your grandchildren are fine, but their peers aren't... our education standards, classroom attendance, children's health, our own life expectancy, the economy, wealth inequality, trust in science... they all got much worse, which conservatives absolutely warned was going to happen.
Speaking for nobody but myself, I can FULLY admit that I was outright dismissive of the concerns coming from anyone who voted Trump, and I regret that now. I respect your opinion either way.
I know it created some mental health issues. However most people did not take those extreme measures. I’m so sorry. My son is a board certified psychiatrist and certainly had an uptick in his business as we all navigated through this.
However the podcast presented no statistical evidence whatsoever. I listened all the way through expecting some huge revelation. It was just cotton candy. A mouthful with no substance.
Re COVID19, I believe that the results and approaches in the USA maybe warranting your conclusion to agree with two political scientists, Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee, who did a couple years’ research and wrote a book detailing the U.S. response to Covid. You say you were wrong to agree with the pandemic measures of lockdown, and you mentioned "the left"—a political opinion, and that the health measures were not worth it after the fact.
I need to point out that over one million people died in the USA, under an inconsistent and unscientifically inclined president who did not collaborate and undermined his medical advisors. Under such circumstances, a national health approach was bound to fail, in tandem with people idiotically insisting on their "personal freedom" to refuse being vaccinated. That would be fine if they stayed home and didn't mingle with others and prevented infecting others. Did they? No they went into streets and protested and became shortsighted and spread the infection much more. As well, the social support and financial supports for businesses and workers in the USA failed,/was absent for those who could not earn, due to shut downs. In Canada, it was much different during the pandemic, wages of people and businesses were subsidized, and the treatments of the associated illnesses adequately dealt with, as Canada paid under our universal healthcare. Those circumstances are qualitative different from what happened in the USA. As result, not as many businesses went bankrupt and fewer workers went deep into depth ,and substantially fewer people died relative to the number of the population. With Canada's population 10 x smaller (I think we had 60,000 deaths), I think still sixty thousand were too many. Indeed, it was a learning process to know how the virus spread, and lockdowns did indeed prevent the spread, at least in Canada, but possibly not in the USA, as you had so many people who chose "freedom" over taking precautions. Health care is not a political issue in Canada (apart from a few who like to emulate MAGA fans). The anti-vaxxers asked for attention for their "freedoms" with the help of Fund Me money, predominantly coming from the USA, and managed to occupy our capital city with their trucks and caused mayhem for the residents there, severely restricting their ability to live their lives and their freedom. Should I thank them?
I think the fact that our pandemic response was determined by politics is *exactly* why a study like this was needed, AND why it needed to come from two highly respected academics.
I've always seen it the same as you; I think Donald Trump used his most gullible followers to spew crackpot opinions because it was good politics for him, and who cares about the people who die... as a result, conservatives and republicans made a violent departure away from science.
What I didn't acknowledge before was that the same phenomenon was happening on the LEFT as well; there were legitimate concerns about domestic violence, mental health, the economy, education standards... and I think, personally at least, because I was so pissed about Donald Trump, I was really dismissive of the concerns coming from the right. Since we're currently paying the price of many consequences the conservatives warned us about, it only seemed fair to acknowledge that the phenomenon occurred on the left too. Do you disagree?
Hi again Brie, it is hard for me to have an opinion on what occurred in the USA but I saw much more negative effects (from what I heard/viewed on our reliable CBC news casts) in the USA, partly because of the confusion and rather haphazard manner in which health care services and the Covd 19 treatments and precautions were applied, plus the harsh Darwinistic society you have there in the USA, rugged individualism, each is on their own, and dont expect the president (or state/federal government) to save you. That was just a precurser to what is going on now in your country. Of course, isolation caused its own side effect. Zoom calls to a mental health service provider is a bit different than being able to walk into an office. Yes, battering spouses, delays in education, all of that. But in Canada, in my view the measures and negavtive effects were not that overwhelming, and the saving of lives made it all worth it. I hope the women left their battering spouse, as any other time in life when they get beaten, and the kids get a tutor or peer tutering at any time they need it, and the schools make arrangements to catch up and improve the school support, and so on. The politics are a distraction. Don't fall for it.
It contains misinformation and spin, is a political view, and I would say it barely qualifies as a contribution to a scientific discussion. But, everybody is allowed to be wrong, of course.
Johanna, respectfully, that's a pretty bold claim. If you're gonna refute The New York Times and two credentialed, awarded political scientists, I think you should probably come with some alternative sources to support your opinion. Is it the methodology? Do you see discrepancies with their funding?
Without providing support for your opinion, it sounds more like you're dismissing what you don't agree with.
The political vieuw is a distraction. Yes, a new virus and new epidemic (Canada dealt with an earlier virus and learned some measures that were successful), and some mistakes made, but overall saving lives is the difference. If measures were controversial, so be it. It is health care and that is at the best of times in the USA controversial, questions about who pays for it, what comes out of one's pocket, who suffers and who is saved, all those effects that we do not experience in Canada. If people didn't want to abide by counter measures (pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical), then they should've stayed home as the considerate thing to do. But the misplaced strong (if not obsessive) sense of "freedom" and "human rights" is the problem in the USA, not how policies are implemented or devised by health professionals. I am not a social scientist and I already explained my opinion before. Maybe come to Canada and live here for a while, the society is much different from that of the USA. "Tunnel vision and the social prejudice talking about the number of deaths," quoted by one of the political scientiss, is a very good reason: the # of dead. There was not a lot of public buy-in. That is the USA for you. Values, yes it is all about values. Sorry for broadening this argument: your society is much different, with different values.